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The Interview
Tom Child: I gotta tell you, the Big Phat Band is great to run to. I call it my Big Phat Run.
Gordon Goodwin: I need a CD player I can run with.
T: We've got a CD holder-thingy that wraps around your waist and doesn't skip.
G: You know, this album, I'm starting to get a little sick of it...
T: (Laughing.)
G: I've heard it enough. And now the album's gonna come out, and we'll have to start doing gigs and...
T: You know, I've always wondered how people can sing a song millions of times and not go nuts.
G: You know, I asked Johnny Mathis about singing "Misty".
T: What did he say?
G: I asked him, how do you do it? I mean, it's a classic piece of material, but how do you sing it night after night after night? And he said, "Oh, I love 'Misty.' And I realized, oh yeah, he's not gonna give me a straight answer.
T: Yeah, that's the party line, he's gotta say that. He's not gonna say, "F*****g 'Misty.' Put a bullet in my head if I have to sing that g*****n tune."
G: (Laughs) I know.
T: Jazz musicians do not take kindly to doing things over and over again. They don't like repetition.
G: Right, but I'm thinking if one of these songs has the good fortune to get some kind of notoriety like that, well, then I'll try to come up with a different take on it somehow, just so we don't go crazy.
T: But I don't think you're planning on taking the band on the road, for weeks at a time, either, playing the tunes over and over every night.
G: Yeah, that's true. This year we'll get maybe half a dozen gigs.
T: I think that's one of the realities of your band. You've set the bar pretty high. If you can't get these guys, then you probably don't want to play. You don't want to hire a bunch of college guys.
G: Yeah, availability is an issue with these guys.
T: You've got an all-star band, here, and unless you get some big gigs, like the playboy jazz festival, or some other big festivals...
G: And I think its that level of things that we're trying to do. Right now the band really has no track record. But with the guest artists we have on the record--that's kind of the hook we're using for these promoters--we're just getting the process going now. How it will play out will be determined. I think that if we can have guest artists get us some of those venues, the band will speak for itself at that point. It's hard because some of the guys are all so busy and in demand. Like Bernie Dresel, how can I compete with the kind of money that Brian Setzer pays?
T: Is your goal to tour?
G: I don't think so. But I will say that to this point, the record company--Silverline, that's the name of the label--they're talking pretty big. I'm the one that's saying, "Really? VH1? You wanna do a video? Well, okay."
T: Really? Good, cool.
G: This is the honeymoon period, when you're starting a relationship and everyone's talking big and making big plans. It's kind of fun, but I'm sure reality will set in. But we are gonna shoot video at the House of Blues concert we're planning for this spring, and we'll then have some material that we'll use in some manner.
T: That'll be cool.
G: Yeah, its a whole other energy to play live than what we're used to, you know, going in the studio and playing and focusing all of our energy on getting a great take. For the live thing, I have to get a certain kind of player who has the horsepower to go all night.
T: Is it a different player than on the record?
G: We did the record in two parts, so we had, like, six trumpet guys on the record including Arturo. We can't use six guys live, so it'll depend on the availability of certain guys. I mean, Jerry Hey, he's so busy that I don't have any illusions about getting him to do a live gig. I might get lucky once in a while, but I have to be realistic about who I can get on the live gigs.
T: Does the record company understand that?
G:
Yeah, they do. That came up at our very first meeting, in terms of, can this music be performed live? And I said, well, this is a band of all-stars from Los Angeles and they all would love to be available to do that, but the fact is...
T: A lot of these guys have solo careers. I'm sure they would love to play this music every night of the week if they could. That's the reality and the ironic part of big band music.
G: None of these guys are fresh off the bus or out of college. They're at a stage in their lives where they have mortgages and families and obligations.
T: With a project like this aren't you're tapping into a place that's at the core of their being? This is the kind of music that they grew up playing.
G: I think so. A lot of us played this kind of music in high school and college, and after college, when we were playing with Bill Watrous and Louie Bellson and working at Donte's. That was a big part of what we did at that time. And then we became more successful and decided to make some money. And then we started to do the TV dates and the movie dates, all that stuff. So after a decade of that I decided that I better throw down here. I thought I'd better produce something that I can hold in my hand and say, "Look! This is what I'm about!" Because I really couldn't say that before, as good as the stuff was. On a craft basis the work has always been top-notch--for Disney and whatever movie we were doing--but it really didn't mean anything as far as what I felt I was about--compositionally, especially. I think that a lot of the guys in the band are kind of in the same place. Some of them make an effort. Bernie Dresel's a guy who has made a conscious effort to keep his live playing going.
T: Absolutely. I think he enjoys it more than a lot of guys.
G: Yeah, not only with Brian Setzer, but he's probably a member of two or three other bands. He's not available all the time, and I know that's probably hard for them, because when you can't get Bernie, you know, it's hard to settle for anyone else.
T: I think that's the case for a lot of guys you have in the band. How do you settle when you've got guys like Eric and Brandon?
G: Yeah, I know. I had a conversation with Wayne Bergeron (Lead Trumpet) about this yesterday. I said, "Wayne, I have a strong feeling here that if you're not available, I don't know if I'm interested in doing the gig."
T: One guy, kills the whole band.
G: Yeah, he's that important, in terms of what he brings to the band.
T: This is near and dear to a lot of guys hearts, this kind of music.
G: Trying to look at it objectively, I haven't heard a lot of big band records that accomplish what this does, just from a sonic basis. That's why when were approached by 5.1 Entertainment to put the album in 6 channel DVD it was a great fit, because it's a new technology and the dynamics and range of the music really fit that system. It's like you're wearing headphones without the headphones. You know, the DVD has so much memory on it, it allows us to present another layer of material. There's a "making of" video on there, and there are photos from the recording sessions that scroll along with each tune. And I recorded an audio commentary track -like a director does on a film- that goes along with the music. I point out different aspects of how we did various things, and tell some inside stories. I tell you, you do one of those babies you gain a whole new respect for Vin Scully.
T: How is it mixed?
G: Basically we mixed it so the trumpets are in front of you, trombones off to your left and saxophones to your right, like a U. And then in the back speakers we threw a lot of miscellaneous stuff, some of the rhythm section, like the percussion and the guitar and piano. It's really quite an experience. But you know, it kind of accentuates one of the problems of big band music, which is you can't put it on and talk over it or ignore it. You can't put it on for dinner. It demands your attention, like Stravinsky. Not that I'm comparing the two, compositionally. I mean, you could put Vivaldi on while you're having dinner, right?
T: Right.
G: But if you put on the "Firebird" your wife's gonna shoot you one of those looks.
T: You're gonna get to a point where it interrupts dinner, and you gotta turn it off.
G: It becomes an annoyance. I think that's one of the reasons smooth jazz music has gotten so popular, because it is stuff, that...
T: ...you can garden to it.
G: (Laughing.)
T: Or anything. It doesn't demand attention.
G: And the 6 channel thing, really pumps it up to yet another level.
T: So you gotta have like, a million-dollar sound system at home to make it happen?
G: Well, good question. 'Cause I said, what, I gotta tell my mom she's gotta spend a couple grand on hardware to hear her son's record? But the DVD units are down to a couple hundred bucks.
T: Yeah, they are.
G: So then it's just a question of having a receiver that's set to do the 5.1 surround sound deal and then having 6 speakers.
T: You're on the cutting edge. Eventually everybody will have it.
G: Right, exactly. And I think the record company is aware that nowadays only 10 percent of the homes have DVD, and less than that have DVD audio with the surround sound, so we are doing a stereo CD release as well to get the music out there.
T: So not only are you trying to find a market niche with a new big band, you're adding this technical layer on top of it.
G: But we're trying to make that work to our advantage. We're trying to leverage the publicity that the DVD audio with all the manufacturers like Panasonic and Pioneer, who are gonna put a lot of publicity into trying to get people aware of this new thing.
T: And they're gonna use your CD as an example.
G: Last January at the CES show in Vegas everyone was so enthusiastic about the music because it really demoed their system well. We're gonna do a bundling deal, where if you buy a DVD player then you get a couple of disks, and ours would be one of those that you could choose from.
T: That'd be great.
G: And you know what else is cool about it? No returns. When you bundle like that, they buy the units and that's it. That's a thing about the record biz, that's a crack-up. In any other business, say, you buy 100,000 snow globes from a guy and you don't sell them...
T: You're stuck with 100,000 snow globes.
G: Yeah, but in the record biz, a retailer can buy 5,000 albums and if he sells 4,999 or if he sells only one, he can send back whatever he doesn't sell, and get a refund!
T: That's amazing.
G: How do they get away with that?
T: I don't know what's up with that. So how many Big Phat Band CDs do you hope to sell ?
G: We're hoping to sell 50,000. Silverline thinks that number is realistic. They think they'll sell a minimum 10,000 a year. We'll see how it goes. I have to say that people that I've played it for- and even the non-musician people- have all really responded to the stuff. To the energy in it, the grooves. Although, certainly those people are gonna be more into "Sing, Sang Sung" than the "Bach Two-Part Invention."
T: Are you putting the CD out with the same order of tunes on the demo?
G: Yeah. The CD you have is in the same order.
T: Did you do that on purpose? You know it's the history of music, in chronological order.
G: No.
T: You didn't know you did that?
G: Completely unaware.
T: Yeah, you start with "Sing, Sang, Sung" and then there's Count Bubba, the bluesy thing, and then it gets a more contemporary as it goes, and by the end it's all funky.
G:
That's hilarious.
T: That's what you did.
G:
Well, that wasn't a conscious thing, but we did try and program it in a certain way. The album has a lot of styles, a lot of dynamic range. You know, there's a school of thought that considers variety like we've got to be a detriment. From a marketing point-of-view they'd rather have it be, you know, the Gordon Goodwin Band Plays For Lovers or something. All one thing, or one style. But when I go to a concert, I wanna have some peaks and valleys and highs and lows.
T: You wanna hear a bunch of stuff. This is a showcase for what you do and what you can do, more than a themed record.
G: I feel that the band is my instrument. I mean, I play all right...
T: (Laughing.)
G: ...but where I think I really make my statement is how the music is arranged and written. In a perfect world, I'd be able to extend it even more, and have a big band and an orchestra. But that's economically pretty difficult.
T: So is the big band the ideal ensemble for you?
G: I think the ideal ensemble would be an orchestra, because I really like to have a range of tone colors available. But that brings other problems. For instance, I wrote a piece for Bil Watrous and the New American Orchestra. The second movement is a samba. When you put a rhythm section in a hall big enough to fit an orchestra--all of a sudden you've got all that air, and if you've got a drummer playing sixteenth notes, it starts to wash everything out, and the time from one end of the orchestra all the way to the other feels weird. With orchestral music that's used to breathing, that rhythmic loosness is cool. But with music that needs to be rhythmically more precise, you've got problems. Especially live. In the studio you can control it somewhat. And when you combine that with a string section's inability to phrase jazz figures in the same way as horn players, then you've got some obstacles to overcome. But I think if it's written in the right way, it's something that would be really cool. But once again, economically, it's quite a mountain to climb.
T: You're not gonna do your funk tunes with an orchestra.
G: I wouldn't want to try. But I would love to have an album with tunes of this nature of this record and then on the B side a couple of orchestra things. That would be cool.
T: But then you run into marketing problems.
G: I know, I know. I'd like to leave the economics to people who can understand it.
T: You're the artist. You shouldn't have to worry about stuff like that.
G: You'd think so, huh?
T: Yeah. Let's talk about the process, and the guest soloists and stuff. The record is so perfectly cast. Did you sit down and write a piece you knew Arturo was gonna play the s**t out of, or did you write a piece and then say, hey, Arturo would be great on this? How did you sit down to write a tune? Obviously, I think the Two-Part Invention was inspired just from hearing that piece.
G: Yeah, Iíve been screwing around with the Bach Two-Part Inventions, probably since high school.
T: Really?
G: Yeah. Bach inventions are harmonically so fundamentally incredible. And they adapt well in a jazz context. But I had Eddie Daniels in my mind when I wrote the piece. I didn't know if I could get him; I didn't know if he would be interested, or if I could get access to him, but once I found a way to get to Eddie, and established a relationship, then I went ahead and finished it. On "Sing, Sang, Sung" I definitely knew I had to have him.
T: Why would you attempt that with anybody else?
G: Yeah. And Arturo. On "Shake Your Bones", once again, I don't know anyone else who could do what he does on that track; his astounding virtuosity and his range, his power and feel for that kind of music.
T: That's where he lives.
G: Thats where he lives, exactly. I had spent some time with Arturo on the IAJE concert [International Association of Jazz Educators] at Disneyland last year. You know, he really likes to play other styles of music besides the Latin stuff. He's been a type-cast there, because he does it so well. Arturo played a blusey plunger solo that night, and that got me thinking: He really understands this idiom, too, and he'd sound great on "Sing, Sang, Sung." And I think he was grateful for the chance to not have to play high, fast and loud all the time. Just 'cause he can do it, doesn't mean that he has to, or should do it all the time.
T: There's other things on here too, that are too perfect. Tom Ranier's solo on "Swinging For The Fences. " To continue the baseball analogy, that's right down the middle of the plate for him.
G: I know. The first time I heard Tom Ranier play, which was...
T: ..a long time ago.
G: Quite a while ago.
T: Probably at Disneyland.
G: I think it was at Cal State Fullerton. You know, he'd pick up the saxophone and just go crazy on it, and then sit down at the piano and do his Oscar Peterson s**t. I've spent twenty years being intimidated by that guy, I mean I've never heard anything like him. And then we became friends and I knew there was no one else who could play on this track. And Brandon, he's the most expressive sax player. I heard him play the National Anthem at a Laker game and he walked out there with his soprano. He just played the melody. He didn't play a lot of extra tricky s**t in there, he just played the melody and let's face it, it's not the most soulful tune. You have to really nudge it in a soulful direction, and he had the whole crowd just wrapped around it. It was amazing. In terms of his facility and his soulfulness, I really love that guy's playing. The whole sax section is really scary. Eric Marienthal. How you gonna compete with that? That kind of energy is just unstoppable. And then you got Dan Higgins playing lead alto, and the solos he plays, which are just like Cannonball Adderley's been reborn. And then there's Bill Liston, who doesn't even get a solo on the record, and we know how amazing he can play.
T: And Sal, too.
G: Sal's an incredibly well -rounded and versatile player, and Greg Huckins -he's the best anchor for the sax section that I could hope for. Our best flautist too.
T: Weren't they all bugging you for solos?
G: Well, no. But I spent a lot of time feeling guilty about it. I thought, what am I doing playing a solo on this thing, when I got Liston back there, and Higgs, and...
T: Yeah, but I told you before, I think your solos are my favorites. Your sound on tenor is good and meaty, it's the best.
G: Uh, well, I don't know. Thank you. It's been some years since I've been able to devote the kind of time that I would really prefer, to practicing and putting energy into being a player, but I kinda thought I can't have a record without playing on it.
T: Oh, yeah.
G: So I stuck it out, and at least got something that I was happy with. It's always a work in progress. But I spent a lot of time thinking about my responsibility to the guys in the trenches; a sax section that is sitting there, playing those parts, listening to one another and blending as well as they do. I need to be able to make it worthwhile to them. Especially if we do more live gigs.
T: You can stretch out then.
G: Yeah. But one of the things I don't want to do with it is make it into, okay, here's the band and we're down at the club and we're jamming. I really want the live presentation of the stuff to be as accessible as it is on the record. I don't think I'm gonna get into any big 12 minute, 15 minute-long jams.
T: It's gonna be interesting to present a big band in a contemporary fashion without it being like it used to be when we'd go see Buddy Rich. How do you make it, I don't want to say show-bizzy, but how do you make the presentation more entertaining?
G: We're thinking a lot about it. You know, the band is pretty much tethered to their music stands. The main thing is, the music has to be right. But if the guys can perform the music at the highest level possible, then I don't mind adding a layer of "show value."
T: Whatever that means.
G: Whatever that means. I don't know what it means. It may be lighting, maybe it's in the look of the band, or the set. Maybe it's small staging things. If you look at the old big bands, the guy's stand up a lot, not only for their solos but different ensemble passages. And if you look at a band like Brian Setzer's the guys have some moves. I don't think that's gonna be something we'll do.
T: No dancing?
G: No, you don't want to see me dance.
T: But Brian Setzer's coming from a rock 'n roll world.
G: Yeah, a rockabilly thing.
T: It's really not about the music.
G: Well, maybe not completely.
T: It's about the tattoos.
G: (Laughing.) Yeah. The main thing is, you go see the Big Phat Band, you're gonna have fun. Like a pop show. Remember when we used to go see Tower of Power?
T: Oh, yeah.
G: I mean, how much fun was that?!
T: I hear you, absolutely. So back to your process, do you get up and say, so, today I'm gonna write a big band chart? Or do you write a tune, and say, hey, this'll work for the band? I know you're very assignment-oriented. Did you give yourself assignments?
G: Yeah, I do. And that's a result of working as a commercial writer. Especially for Warner Brothers, when we were working on "Animaniacs" and "Pinky and the Brain". It would be like, okay, today you're doing a John Williams parody, and then the next day you're writing a parody of the "Saturday Night Live" song, so you have to be able to analyze the essence of what makes the "Saturday Night Live" song what it is, and write one without stealing it and still make it something that's inspired. So, for me, it's a combination of my craft and my inspiration. I took some orchestration lessons from a guy named Albert Harris, who was an old pro at Universal for many years. He taught me the concept that said, if I'm writing for oboe, I need to have the oboe in mind from the first note.
In those days I would write a piano sketch, and then orchestrate it. Consequently, you end up with lines that kind of sound like it's been written for oboe, but it goes a little too low, and goes below the range of the instrument, oops, I better make it clarinet. And all of a sudden, it changes the whole thing. It's a discipline thing, really. You have your score or sketch set up- here's your brass line, here's your woodwind line, and here's your string line, or whatever and you don't put a note down until you know where it goes. Sometimes you'll hear a passage and won't know what instrument should be - okay, nowadays I can program it into the computer, and record it in there in Performer, and then at least I have the essence of what it is. Early on, I wanna know what I'm writing for, and who it is. Now, with this band, I did know the personnel. I knew I had Wayne, Andy Martin, Dan Higgins; so knowing their personalities, it's just like with Duke Ellington. He knew those guys and he wrote for those guys.
T: And that's why is sounded the way it did.
G: Right. The other thing I like to do is prime the pump, inspirationally speaking. If I need, say, a Latin song, I'll go and listen to Tito Puente, or Clare Fischer's group, or Sergio Mendes, and just let it wash over me, and that seems to trigger things -nothing specifically melodic, but the concept.
T: So you start from the feeling?
G: Yeah. And you know, sometimes, I will get a hook. Like on "Samba Del Gringo" the intro hook just popped into my head. Sometimes I get 'em when I'm on my morning run.
T: Driving around.
G: A lot of times if I'm driving around, something'll pop into my head, and I'll call my voicemail and sing it into the voicemail, 'cause, you know the way it is with me, now, unless I write it down, it's gone!
T: (Laughter)
G: When I was in college, I could write a song, and then play it back for you by memory a month later. I guess I didn't have as much crap in my head.
T: That's another thing. How do you balance the family obligations, and try and make music, and be inspired?
G: Yeah, you know, the family, is irreplaceable.
T: Of course.
G: And that's one of the hardest decisions, especially if I have my responsibilities to my career as a commercial writer, you know that's gonna take all day. So then, when you get done with your day, oftentimes you have to make a choice: Am I gonna go practice my horn for an hour, am I gonna get a start on that big band chart, or am I gonna help the kids with their homework, or go shoot hoops with my son, or read a book to my daughter.
T: And you gotta do all of those things.
G: It's a juggling act.
T: And it stretches everything out over eons, as opposed to getting it something done, you know, in a week.
G: That's why it's great to get as much stuff like that done when you're young. But you know what? I couldn't have made this album when I was young.
T: Why?
G: Because I didn't have the focus that I've gotten in the last decade. When I listen to charts I wrote in college and those early years, they sound hasty to me. I can hear an energy, sure, but I used a lot of dense voicings. There was more conflict in the music in those days. To some people, that's a good thing. When I hear "Let's Eat Cactus"now, I don't even know who wrote it. I have no idea who wrote that chart.
T: Really?
G: Yeah.
T: 'Cause I think your music has always sounded like your music to me. I could pick your tunes out of any blindfold test.
G: I guess we're not our own best judge.
T: You definitely have a style, a whimsy. I think you're music sounds like its having fun. No matter tune it is.
G: I think that's important. Once again, the fun works if the basis of it is strong. I mean, we're dead serious about this stuff. You don't spend as much time learning to do what we do without being serious about it. But making it sound natural and relaxed, isn't easy to do. You know, I had a series of debates on the internet some years ago with a guy, don't know who he was, just some screen name- and we were talking about big band writing, and I had posted a list of the writers of who had inspired me and I'd studied as I was growing up and one of those names was Sammy Nestico. And the guy said he couldn't respect a list that didn't have Duke Ellington on it. And I said, I have the utmost respect for Duke as a songwriter, but I'm just saying, these guys are who influenced me the most. It got into the merits of how Sammy's stuff was more predictable and traditional and not that challenging. This guy's taste was more into Carla Bley and Gil Evans and more unconventional writers. And I said it's deceptive to think that what Sammy does is easy. Just sit down and try it. Without meaning any disrespect to those other composers, I think you need to learn the rules and then choose to break them, if you want.
T: So who's on that list? Thad Jones is on there, I bet.
G: Thad is definitely on that list. I just wrote a chart for Eddie Daniels and its called "Thad Said No." The chart is in reference to Eddie Daniel's clarinet solo on "Little Pixie". I remember hearing it and going, man, that's a clarinet?! It was the coolest thing. I mean, we were used to hearing Benny Goodman, the more dated, swing-era thing.
T: And not used to hearing a clarinet sound like Eddie.
G: Yeah, but Thad didn't want him to do it. He hated it. Thad didn't want him to play a clarinet solo. And Eddie just picked up his clarinet and went for it. And, of course, the irony is that solo, arguably, was one that got him a lot of attention as an artist on the instrument. So we'll be doing "Thad Said No", hopefully at House Of Blues in this spring.
T: Did Eddie commission it?
G:
No, we'd talked about doing some other things. It was just one of those things that popped into my head one day.
T: And you wrote it down.
G: Thad is on the list. Sammy.
T: Those Buddy Rich guys had to have been on the list.
G: I didn't put 'em on.
T: Really? Pete Myers and ...
G: He's a great writer, he did that "Love For Sale" chart, and Bill Reddie, the guy from Vegas who wrote "Channel One Suite", and certainly, I wore that stuff out, but I think I probably had Bob Florence, and Bill Holman, and another Kenton writer, and I think I had Billy Strayhorn on there.
T: That should satisfy your Duke Ellington fan.
G: Yeah.
T: I love Duke Ellington, but it can be a bit of a challenge to listen to a lot of that stuff. A lot of it sounds, uh, kinda sloppy.
G: I know, it's almost sacrilegious to say it, but it's the truth. And there are Count Basie records that are out of tune. Certainly there are tons of Stan Kenton and Buddy Rich records that are out of tune and sloppy, as well. It has nothing to do with ethnicity.
T: No.
G: A lot of times west coast big bands are criticized for their clarity and precision, and the implication is that they don't have any feeling, and they're not real jazz players. But I think it can be both. I think it has to feel good, but I want it in tune, and I want it rhythmically tight, and I want everything.
T: I think you got it.
G: As far as the band casting, you're gonna phrase it differently if you're playing a Count Basie style swing tune versus one of the funky things. And not everybody has a rhythmic sense to be able to adjust in that manner, especially in the rhythm section.
T: You got guys who can do both. In the old days, nobody did it well. Is that because you're in Los Angeles and you've got access to the most versatile musicians in the world? Guys like Jim Cox.
G:
When we recorded Eddie on the Bach piece, he heard Jim's piano solo and was blown away and said, "who is this guy?! " And I said, "His name is Jim Cox." And he said, "I don't know him", and I said, "yeah, he plays with Ringo."
T: (Laughter)
G: He said, "He plays with Ringo? What the hell is that?! " And I said, "Yeah, well, that's the incongruity that is Jim Cox. He can play with Ringo and own it; he knows more about Ringo than Ringo does and yet, he can turn around and be Bill Evans." Yeah, Eddie was blown away by Jim. And you can really hear that on the "Bach"solo.
T: Eddie just springs right off of Jim's solo.
G: Yeah, he does. Eddie was overdubbed. He wasn't available to record with the band, so we took the tracks back to New Mexico where he lives. But you can't tell that they weren't in the same room, because of Eddie's empathy with Jim and the rest of the rhythm section. We recorded Eddie at a studio called Stepridge, and it was such an incredible weekend. You know, it's such a beautiful part of the country there, in Santa Fe, and we had a great meal and the studio has a little house that you get to stay in. It was like a vacation. Of course, I was thrilled to be working with Eddie. My wife Lisa said she wished I could have seen the look on my face, listening to Eddie.
T: Play your music.
G: Right.
T: That's one of those dreams-come-true kind of things.
G: It really is. I first heard Eddie in, what, nineteen seventy, uh 1972? When did those Thad Jones Village Vanguard records come out?
T: '71 or '72?
G: Yeah, and the first time I heard the guy, I became a huge fan, so twenty some years of being a fan and then getting the opportunity.
T: It's like kids growing up dreaming about playing baseball, and then they end up playing with Sammy Sosa.
G: Right.
T: So with Eddie and Arturo then, the actual recording of this CD is different than most big band records, isn't it? Almost like a pop album?
G: Yeah, one of our goals was to put a little more preparation into the production aspect of the music.
T: And this was without knowing it was going to end up as such a sonic experience?
G:
Yeah, we had no idea when we started, that we would have that opportunity.
T: That's quite a tribute to the production.
G: We had the good fortune to get Tommy Vicari to engineer the record. Tommy was introduced to me by Jerry Hey. We worked together on a Ray Charles project, and I had never heard a big band sound like this. I mean, it was the punchiest thing I'd ever heard. Clear, you could hear every part. And with all those instruments. Especially in a stereo field, how do you find space for everything? I don't even know how he does it. But when you're listening to his stereo mix, and you say, I'm going to listen for the guitar,there it is. Even if I want to listen for an inner saxophone part, I can always find it. It puts a little more heat on the players, because there's no place to hide. If something's a little out of tune, it's obvious. And Tommy thinks he's actually lost a little work because of his mixes sounding this way.
T: Really?
G: Yeah, because artists, even if they're not aware of it on a conscious level, they might feel they're a little more naked in that sonic environment. But, I mean, the sound he gets on the trumpets, for example- they just sizzle.
T: I like the subtle production touches, like the two guitar parts on "Sing, Sang, Sung." You're not used to hearing that stuff on a big band record.
G: That was actually kind of a happy accident. After Grant Geissman put one part down, I wanted more of a Freddie Green rhythm part.
T: Chunky.
G: Yeah, chunky kind of part throughout the whole thing. And then when we mixed, Tommy put 'em both up, and they sounded so good, we couldn't figure out a reason not to have 'em both there. In the six channel mix, you can get into more stuff like that. With more speakers to throw those things in, they're better able to coexist. But, honestly, you know, I planned on putting some synth parts, just to give it some glue, really subtle- but they didn't seem to fit. What happens is that when you get players of this caliber, the energy gets elevated. For instance, on "There's The Rub", which is just a funky E7 jam, is all it is, a lot of times when you're writing that kind of music, compositionally I'll think, what do I have here? Is this anything? With that kind of stuff, if you add too much to it... as a matter of fact, you know what? I took that chart and I cut a lot of stuff out, after we got it on it's feet. Cause I realize, this is a jam. I had a development section, after the solos, but I realized, it wasn't appropriate for this. This song needs...
T: Just to be what it is.
G:
Yeah. DS, restate the melody, and vamp out. Once I heard Pena, Bissonette, and James Harrah playing that groove, I thought, yeah, okay. I'm glad I didn't dress it up with a lot of stupid chords.
T: You overwrote on purpose without realizing what you would end up?
G: I overwrote by accident. Because when you're in your room, staring at a piece of paper...
T: You want to fill the paper.
G:
Yeah, but it's easier to take away, than it is to go back and add more. But I think that tune works in the context of everything. If it had been a whole album of E7 jams, I don't think I would have felt so good about it. But the fact that I can follow that with "Second Chances" a pretty sophisticated piece, I think it provides a nice contrast.
T: Let's talk about your co-producers.
G: I had two co-producers on the record, Jon Baker and Dan Savant, and my relationship with those guys goes back some time. Dan, I knew in high school -we met in the All-Southern Band that you played in--
T: Yep.
G: ... and then we've worked together on TV , film and Disney projects throughout the years. And Jon Baker, we also met while working for Disney.
T: So how do you produce a big band record? What do they bring to it?
G: Jon produced my first big band record. He had a much larger role at that time, booking the studio, conceptualizing the songs, and the whole production process. I hadn't had much experience with that stuff at that time. But this time around I had some real definite ideas about how I wanted to do it, and so Jon was more of a sounding-board and was in the booth during the recording, and helped with judgments about tightness. He's a real good judge of whether a take was magical or not. 'Cause when you're playing, you're kinda involved.
T: And it's always magical.
G: You'd be surprised! Jon actually saved a chart. "Count Bubba" had a shout chorus on it, that didn't pay off. I mean, it worked, certainly it was skillful and it worked, and the tune was a lot of fun, but he said, "You know what, Gordo? I don't know if this shout chorus pays the tune off all that well." And, at first, I said, "Get outta here, go write your own damn shout chorus." And then I went home and thought, you know, I think he's right. And so, I took another look at it and I simplified it. And now that shout chorus is one of the highlights for me, the way that thing pays off. So that kind of input is really valuable.
T: Were you ever surprised?
G: Yeah, yeah. I was surprised about "Samba Del Gringo." "Samba Del Gringo" was actually written as a parody of the jingle you and I wrote for Tokyo Disneyland.
T: Right, right.
G: I don't know why I decided it was a good idea to write a parody of that tune, but that tune came alive with Andy Martin's and Brandon's solos. And Luis Conte - the groove he and Bernie play on it. That took me by surprise a little bit. "There's The Rub" took me by surprise. The Bach piece exceeded my expectations. I think it's the best cut on the record. No one agrees with me, but it's the longest tune - seven and a half minutes, but it doesn't seem like it. How can you go wrong with Bach? Even I couldn't mess him up.
T: Yeah, but you gotta split the songwriter's royalties with him.
G: Nah. He's the definition of public domain!
T: I don't know what my favorite tune is. I have favorite parts. Like Eric's solo on "Swinging For The Fences."
G: Yeah. He doesn't put the horn in his mouth unless he means it.
T: What was the inspiration behind "Sing, Sang, Sung"? Why did you do that?
G: It was probably a bit of a nod to the swing phenomenon.
T: But it's so far beyond that thing of swing music that doesn't actually swing.
G: Right. Certainly "Sing, Sing, Sing" was the original source material, but John Williams did a parody of it in "1941", the Spielberg movie, I don't know if you remember that far back, but he did a parody of a USO club, a dance contest. His parody is all over the place -he had to catch a lot action, more cartoony. That song is so identifiable with that era. I thought it would be fun to break down the sections of the song, and do an homage to it. People do respond to it. We had a launch party at the House Of Blues in Las Vegas to demo the new DVD system. First they played Billy Idol, then Nat King Cole, and then they played us. It was the first time I had the opportunity to watch people listen to the music. Usually I try and be invisible, and just kind of endure it, when people are listening.
T: It's that hard for you?
G: Yeah.
T: Why? Don't you know it's great?
G: I don't think I do. I feel that I am so out of step with my culture. The food that I eat, the music I like, the movies I see, the books I read, so I would be very surprised if it was embraced. Let's face it, I had abandoned the idiom for nearly ten years. I couldn't get anyone in the record industry to give it a shot.
T: You get to the point where you just don't care what they think. I'm gonna do this, and if you like it, fine.
G: Yeah, I'm gonna do what I have to do. So it was pretty amazing when I met John Trickett and the guys at 5.1 Entertainment. They've been incredibly supportive throughout the whole process. They've made every effort to ensure that all facets of the CD and DVD production are of the highest quality.
T: That's pretty refreshing treatment in an age where record companies tend to ignore jazz artists, and stand in line to give contracts to 18 years old pop singers.
G: That's one of the things that puzzles me about our culture. That we accept that someone who is 19 or 20 is at a mature level in terms of their artistry. Now, I had a youthful energy at that age, but it wasn't refined.
T: Look at Sting. And he was older when he got started with the Police, but his early tunes are not nearly as sophisticated or complete, as his music is now.
G: Now, that would be a great guy to do a record with.
T: He's the real thing.
G: What kind of sales is he getting?
T: I don't know.
G: I'm reading a book about the music biz that talks about a mid-level artist selling something like 400,000 records.
T: (Laughing.) Oh, man.
G: Imagine if I sold, what, 100,000? Jeez, I'd be the toast of jazzdom.
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